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Gamifying Courses: The Future of Education With Murray Gray


Murray Gray

Murray Gray is the Co-founder of Xperiencify, a platform helping course creators get more people to complete their online courses. He is the developer of the “Experiencification” methodology: a powerful combination of techniques from the fields of games, adult learning psychology, and the gambling industries.


A self-taught marketer and entrepreneur, Murray has made a career out of building software platforms to make life easier for other business owners. He is also the Founder of Engagify, and has previously founded and co-founded numerous companies such as Live Your Message, HeroicNow.com, Adicted.io, Fansflood, and others.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:


  • Murray Gray discusses how Xperiencify helps people 

  • Building a platform for improving online course completion rates

  • Xperiencify’s metrics for online course completion rates and how they impact sales 

  • The value of breaking down the courses into bite-sized pieces 

  • Xperiencify’s ideal clients and customer success stories 

  • Murray shares his insights on AI in the education sector 

In this episode…


Courses are one of the best ways to improve someone's skills or train employees. However, research shows that only about 3% of people who purchase online courses ever complete them. Gamifying the course could be a game-changer for you. 


Serial entrepreneur Murray Gray is a course creator who has been releasing courses for years to help people transform their lives through education. With time, he discovered that only a handful of people who bought his course would finish it and get the desired results. This propelled him to find an easy and fun way to get more people to complete his online courses. He shares how he increased the course completion rates by leveraging games and human psychology in the course creation process. 


In this episode of The Customer Wins, Richard Walker sits down with Murray Gray, Co-founder of Xperiencify, to discuss how course creators can improve course completion rates. Murray discusses how Xperiencify helps people, its metrics for online course completion rates and how they impact sales, key things to improve course completion rates, and its ideal clients and customer success stories.


Resources mentioned in this episode:



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Episode Transcript:


Intro 0:02 

Welcome to The Customer Wins podcast where business leaders discuss their secrets and techniques for helping their customers succeed and in turn grow their business.


Richard Walker 0:16 

Hi, I'm Rich Walker, the host of The Customer Wins where I talk to business leaders about how they help their customers when I heard their focus on customer experience leads to growth. Past guests have included Frank Cowell of Revenue Ranch, Caity Cronkite of Good Words, Mike Jalonen of Habit Driven and Eric Bourget of HalfSerious. Today I get to speak with Murray Gray, co-founder of Xperiencify and today's episode is brought to you by Quik! the leader in enterprise forms processing. When your business relies upon processing forms, don't waste your team's valuable time reviewing the forms. Instead get quick using our Form Xtract API, simply submit your completed forms and get back clean, context rich data that is 99.9% accurate. Visit quick forums.com to get started. Now before I introduce today's guest, I'd like to give a big thank you to Murray's wife, Marisa Murgatroyd, the founder of Live Your Message for introducing me to Murray, go check out her website at liveyourmessage.com to learn how they help people build incredible education businesses that align to someone's true purpose. All right, now let's meet Murray Gray co-founder of Xperiencify. Murray is a builder, specifically software platforms that make life easier for companies both large and small. He's a self-taught marketer and entrepreneur, he's insanely curious and loves learning new things, languages and skills. His current passion is xperiencify.com. And here's why online education is broken. Did you know that only 3% of people get results from online courses they buy? xperiencify.com fixes that problem. It's a platform that combines learning with psychology, gamification, and Silicon Valley black magic Murray, welcome to The Customer Wins.


Murray Gray 2:00 

Thanks so much. Rich, great to be here.


Richard Walker 2:02 

I'm excited to talk to you. For those of you who haven't heard this podcast before. I love to talk to business leaders about what they're doing to help their customers win, how they build and deliver great customer experience and the challenges to growing their own company. Murray, we want to understand your business better. How does your company help people?


Murray Gray 2:19 

That's a great question. And I think that the answer to the question is, we started at a point where we didn't feel like we were helping people. Marisa and I, we create courses. And we do education. And we work with a lot of people who want to transform and be more and have more in their lives. And currently businesses. And we've been releasing courses for a lot of years. And we were looking into the numbers. And we realized that, as you alluded to in the introduction is we only had a handful of people who ever bought our course, who would finish it, who would get results. And then we when we saw the numbers were heartbroken because we were like, all these people are trusting us and paying us money and putting their hopes and dreams and desires into this kind of result of getting some outcome from the course they bought from us. And we were seeing not many people finishing the course. And we were like what's going wrong here. And we started asking all of our colleagues and people in business around us people in our industry. And we realized that there was actually an industry wide problem with online education is that people don't like it. People don't like going through courses, and they don't really like, spending time watching trainings online. And we found that the completion rate was kind of average, that average that around three to 5%, across the industry. And we were like, how is this even possible people are paying money, and they're not finishing the courses? Is it our fault? Is it their fault? And when we asked our friends who are also entrepreneurs, they said, well, they paid us the money and they didn't go through the course. And if they don't have the motivation to finish it, then really that's on them. That's on them, we can't control what action they take after they buy. And that didn't sit well with us. Because we feel like people have trusted us with their money and they didn't get the result. And so somehow, the fact is that we failed, we failed the customer. And we kind of had a long night of the soul. And we will try to figure out what we could do differently to help get people results. And we kind of went down the rabbit hole of gamification and adult learning psychology and what's Silicon Valley doing to keep us addicted, literally addicted to the phones and to the experiences and the apps on the phone. And we figured out a bunch of things. And when we apply those things to our courses, the funniest thing happened. They worked. People started to really engage and get results from our courses and it kind of 10X immediately with people with finding that we've taken the experience that the these kind of addictive experiences and we've taken elements from those and put it into the education. And people suddenly were starting to get results, and also starting to really complete the course and record numbers and coming back to us to buy from us again and again and again. And that wasn't happening before, because they just weren't getting results from the first thing they bought from us. So that's really what I would say is like, that's how we help the customer. It's the old Zig Ziglar quote, you know that that quote of, you can get anything in life that you want, as long as you help other people get what they want, and realize that we can grow our business and we get results that we want from our business, and success, as long as we help the people who trust us, our customers to get what they want. And that's really what's led us to this point of realizing we weren't doing enough to help that customer. And we can now see that our own successes wrapped up completely and totally with helping that customer win. And as a celebration, I've got my new wind mug here that I've got my coffee in. And this is a cup that I made, this was going to be much for my software company Xperiencify because it's like it's a little computer game font, looks like game, that really boils down to, you know, if you can help your customer win, and you win, and everybody wins.


Richard Walker 6:29 

Murray, there's so many things I love about this story. Because I don't know if you knew this, but I've published two books, and my first book, I started promoting it. And every now and then somebody would write to me like a freshman at Alabama University. He's like, I didn't think I could walk onto the football team, I read your book, and it motivated me and I decided, and he's like, and I got on, I got onto the team. And I got other stories like that. But the thing was, I discovered that I'd sold hundreds of books, one out of 100 would actually finish reading it and apply it. And you know what that actually demotivated me from wanting to help people with the book and promoted even further? Because I'm like, how am I ever going to reach these people, but I love that you guys said, we got to change this because we did do this work, we did build this value, and they're not getting it. So how do we give it even better? I love that you think about that? Because that is a lot of entrepreneurs, journeys. Do you have a background and software to then take this and build it? I mean, how did you make that leap?


Murray Gray 7:27 

Yeah, so I did a computer science degree and left university with no job, no entrepreneurial sort of tendencies at all. My father was an engineer, and my mother was a nurse, and not entrepreneurs at all. But I realized that I didn't just want an office job, I wanted to have a job where I can help people I could use my software skills. And people around me were kind of in the business space. And I was like, What can I do in the business space for software? And that really led me down the road of creating tools and applications that can help people in business achieve more and help the customers better?


Richard Walker 8:10 

Yeah. So there's something else I was thinking about, as you were talking about this, and that is oftentimes people who will coach sales, like a sales coach will say to you, you don't need more leads, you need to get more out of the leads you're getting. And to me, that's kind of the corollary, right? You've brought people to your service, and only 3% are getting the value. And you found a way to turn that around to a much higher output. Is there a metric that you guys look at now? Are you getting 20% 40%?


Murray Gray 8:37 

The metric is going to sound unbelievable when I tell you what we're getting, but I want to address what you said just write down it was really profound. And the fact is that if you're only getting this percent three 5% completion on the courses, and if you could take that up to 20, or 30, or even 50% imagine the flow on effect of repeat sales, from houses and customers for life that you get in to the business because they got results from the first thing. We do the same. We apply the same gamification techniques to lead magnets as well. Because if you have a lead magnet that maybe 1% of people download and open and read maybe what if you could get like a 20 or 50% Read rate on a lead magnet? What would that do for your business? So really, it comes down to figuring out how to help people be more successful. That is really the kind of the principle that underlines everything that we do is we use all these tools and tactics from different industries, like gamification in Silicon Valley in Las Vegas gambling industry, how do we use all those things in a way that helps people become more successful? We're not just relying on people having the tools and the resources to be successful, but helping them be more successful. So yeah, what was your question?


Richard Walker 9:54 

Well, no, no, I mean, this is all interesting because you're helping people get more value out of who they're already working with. I mean, you're right, you want the follow on sale. So I was recently on a podcast called Inspired Insider to talk about how you create a super user for your product. Because if you have a raving fan, what do they do? They're the word of mouth. Right? So we actually looked at our software and said, what are the key milestones and steps a user must take to go from interested party, to actual paying user to super user and try to help them achieve those milestones. We haven't hit gamification yet, which is why I want to talk to you even more. But I think if you can recognize those things, and you turn more people into super users, not only do you get more customers out of who you're already talking to, but you get more customers following on, as you said, because of the impact you're giving them. So I love that that's how you guys are thinking about this, because again, it comes back to how you are helping your customer win by using gamification and Xperiencify to improve their solutions, right?


Murray Gray 10:54 

Absolutely. And I remember you asked about the number. So we were getting like a three to 5% completion rate on our courses. And then when we tried these ideas, to help people become more successful, we immediately had a 50% 52% completion rate on the first course that we tried it on, like now since then we've evolved and approve of techniques even more. So some courses, some smaller courses are getting a 70% completion rate, because of the tools that we've developed. And it's not about the tool. And it's not about the feature, it's not about the software, it's about the mindset of what can you do to make the customer to help the customer become more successful. And it's sometimes it's not about a pain tool, it's about just something that you can say, or something that you can do differently or extra, that really helps someone change their state or change their frame.


Richard Walker 11:43 

All right, so let's get into some meat and potatoes here with Xperiencify, what are some of the key things that you're helping somebody do differently, that improves their conversion, and therefore their completion rates.


Murray Gray 11:53 

I think the first biggest thing that we do is we just take out all the overwhelm in the experience. So think about if you're like taking a course on how to get familiar with money, or you want to do accounting for your business, or something that is important to you, and you buy the course, and you log into the course. And the first thing you see with most courses is what do you say, right? It's a lot of content. Like where do I start? And what's the first reaction when you see like, there's five hours of content, right? There's videos or eight hours of videos right there. So your first instinct is, wow, that feels like it's valuable. Great. There's all content here, I got what I paid for, I'm going to come back to this on the weekend, because I can't really dedicate that amount of time, I don't really know where to start. And I don't really want to dive into this because it looks like it could be a multi, multi-hour thing. So I'm going to just come back to this later. And what happens to most people is that later never comes is that it really does send people down a spiral of procrastination. Yeah. And that really, really discourages people from ever taking action. Because the longer they wait to come back, the more guilty they feel about, I should get back to that. And the more guilty we feel, the less likely it is we'll take action as you might imagine.


Richard Walker 13:15 

This happened, I bought a $1,500 course. I think I got a third of the way through it. And suddenly, I felt like I'd been on this nice hike going up the hill. And suddenly I'm facing 100 foot cliff, I don't know how to scale. And that's the point I stopped, I'm like, this next step is too much work. And I just couldn't get over the overwhelm. And I backed off of it. And I'm like, I'll do this another day. And then another day, it's never happened. So Right. Oh, man. So what do you do about that?


Murray Gray 13:42 

So what do we do is and we tap into the human, kind of the inbuilt. And I'm talking about our software platform here, because we have courses in our platform. And when we run courses now platform, the things we do include, we borrowed an idea from video games, if you imagine a video game where you login, and you do a few things and you get rewarded. Like they're really easy things like you log in, you boot it up and you like, click this button, and points and then that's cool. And then you click on the next thing and it's like a little more involved, you do something else. And then you check it off and you get some points or you go and kill this really easy thing, kill an easy, bad guy and you get some points. So what they do is they get you taking action immediately by doing very, very small things. And before you know it, maybe an hour has gone past and you're still going, that's cool. I'm gonna do this and you get some points you get rewarded. So this is the same principle we built into our platform. And again, this is more of a mindset than a software thing you can do this in any way that you like that you that it makes sense. You want to give people what we call easy and constant wind. And this taps into our biology and it gives people this feeling of momentum and when you can give people these constant in easy wins as they first enter an experience, it's really hard to stop because you feel like you're making progress. And it feels like you're gaining momentum. And for a lot of people, it's the first time they've felt that feeling in a long time, because we're all in a constant state of overwhelm, and a constant state of procrastination. And when someone comes into one of our courses, they like, check it off thing, check it off, do this thing, check it off points, celebrations, it's like a lot of things. It's almost like a video game. And they feel like, this is so different to anything I've ever done online before with education. And I want more of this because I feel like I'm actually achieving something. So that's the first thing that we do.


Richard Walker 15:40 

So these points, I mean, when you think about a video game points are just a measurement of achievement, just how far you've gone, how many gold you've collected, you can't exit the game and go spend them somewhere. So you're really using that psychology, even if you're learning an accounting program, or something else. I mean, I'm thinking accounting, because that can be very dry, right? And you're turning it into something engaging and fun. So I think that's really smart. Is it really like noises and the beings and the booms, etc as well?


Murray Gray 16:11 

It is, yeah, it is literally, you check something off, and you get some confetti and you get some points, and there's a sound effect. And sometimes there's a celebration that pops up, that seems like it's out of the blue random. And because of that pattern, interrupt where something happens that people weren't expecting, and it breaks the pattern of, Oh, I know what's coming. And when people are in that habit, or that pattern of I know what's about to happen, the brain has permission to power down and kind of switch off and go into energy conservation mode. And that's what happens to most trainings, most education, and also most experiences in life, the brain can predict what's going to happen. So you'd like to sit back and you're like, all right, I'm just gonna sort of take this in, and then eventually will pretty quickly, you find yourself picking up the phone, because you're in need of some dopamine. We pop up the pattern interrupts and the celebrations and the Easter eggs so that people never have a chance to get into that really sort of disengaged state. And when the brain is never allowed to get into that state. It's in this hyper aware hyper focused mode, which is where you want your students to be.


Richard Walker 17:20 

Yeah. Okay, there's something you're not exactly saying that I want to see if I'm writing and intuiting here, which is that you're taking the course and then you must be breaking it down into bite sized pieces. I mean, you've taken five hours of content or education. How do you guys break it down? Is your is your software is doing that automatically and identifying the right points? Or is that a skill?


Murray Gray 17:41 

Well, I'm a huge believer in I think the future of education is going to become more like TikTok and less like one or two hour sessions that you sit through and watch somebody go yak, yak, yak, nobody wants to yak yak. People want the TikTok, that's something that long. And I'm not saying that cost should be like a TikTok. But I'm saying borrow the ideas and borrow the principles from what makes that so successful, because attention spans are invariably decreasing. And people don't have time to dedicate to a one or even one hour to a big long thing. So the more you can make the trainings, more bite size, more, maybe 10 minutes, rather than 30 minutes, the better your engagement rate will be, the better the stick rate, the better their completion rate. And some people bring courses to us that are the old style. And we know they're not really willing to kind of recap or redo the course. And I get that because it's a lot of work. But we do encourage people to keep it on the smaller side. And what we do is we take someone's course that they bring to us. And we wrap all of the other things around it, all of the stuff that I've already mentioned plus other stuff that I haven't mentioned. And that creates the kind of a ethically I like to say, ethically addictive experiences, that's the ethically addictive experience that we wrap around the course information that can really enhance and increase the engagement of the course.


Richard Walker 19:09 

So then it might be easier if somebody is thinking about building a course to come to you first and build it the way that the Xperiencify platform would leverage it the best and maximize it right.


Murray Gray 19:20 

Yeah, we've got a whole methodology around the best way to build a course. So we've got a lot of documentation, a lot of articles about it, believe it or not, when people build memberships, like the way you sign up, and it's a monthly recurring billing, and you get content every month, there's a way to set that up for best outcomes as well that we teach. So yeah, we have a lot of that kind of best practice available.


Richard Walker 19:43 

Nice. This is a funny question, what do you think has been the most unique type of course that's come through your program and I'm not saying reveal names or anything like that, but it because like, I mean, learning finance seems pretty straightforward. Self-improvements. kind of straightforward. But what's like the craziest thing you've seen?


Murray Gray 20:03 

We've had people doing swingers courses, like, how to get into the swinger lifestyle. We've had people who are incorporating meditation with guns, like how does get into a meditative state as you do target shooting and things like that? I mean, the other essence of the question is I have people all the time asking me, Murray, does these ideas and techniques do they work with what I'm doing? Do they work with this subject? Because I think my people are different? And my answer is, these ideas only work with one kind of audience, human beings. Yeah. And as long as you're dealing with human beings and trying to get them to engage this stuff works, and it works on every single human being on the planet, that doesn't matter what you're teaching, the stuff will work.


Richard Walker 20:55 

I run a software company, can we use this to develop a better onboarding process for our software?


Murray Gray 21:02 

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if you want engagement, then there's probably no better choice than to incorporate these ideas into your training, because it's in everyone's best interest for your employees to be on boarded in the right way. Because if they onboard, and they engage, and they learn and they retain, and they use the information that's in the onboarding, in a much higher and deeper way, they do better in their job, they feel better about themselves, they tend to be more mastery in their position, they can get promoted faster, they're not going to leave earlier than you want. And you benefit. So it's like the customer in this situation is your people, your team. And if they win, then you will win.


Richard Walker 21:45 

Yeah, that's awesome. Have you had corporations bring to their training for their employees?


Murray Gray 21:50 

Yeah, yeah, we have a lot of companies bringing the trainings and bringing the sort of employee onboarding and re skilling, and employee sales training staff, and partner training, all different kinds of education you can name, we've had people bring it to us and say, how can you help us make this more engaging?


Richard Walker 22:10 

Yeah. And that's awesome. And that's so awesome. Okay, so look, a lot of my listeners are in the financial wealth management space. They're financial advisors, they sell life insurance, they're certified financial planners, things like that. They have regulations that holds them back from producing content and such, have you worked with anybody in this industry, who has said, I am going to educate I don't know, my clients' kids on how to build wealth or something like that?


Murray Gray 22:35 

Yeah, we've got quite a few people who are creating courses and education around finance. And finances is a challenging subject. And people have to change their identity actually, to get better at finance and managing money. Because money is one of the thorniest topics there is and people's identity is wrapped up with what they think about money from a very, very early age. So we have a lot of clients are having success. And they're actually building a lot of community features into the course so that people can encourage each other. And it's like that virtuous cycle of action and then recognition and social proof and people encouraging each other. So there's different ways to use all the features, or the gamification ideas and all of these psychological features to get people to engage and take action on for different subjects and different topics. So I recommend slightly different subset of ideas and strategies depending on like, if you're in finance, or you're in personal development, or whatever it is that you're doing.


Richard Walker 23:40 

Yeah. Okay, so I have to give a shout out to Joe Moss, he is the community leader for Pro Advisor Suite, I had him on my show. And one of the things that his vision is, is to build a community of people. So he's been building a space with RIAs, and building it with vendors who serve the RIAs. And what he has expressed is this view of, if you build a really, really strong community, there's a ton of value in that. And we're gonna see companies being formed out of communities, we're going to see products formed out of communities, and we're going to see that just the community itself being sold as an asset at some point. And so I want him to hear this. And he's been a great fan of this podcast, because you can apply this to the community methodologies too.


Murray Gray 24:23 

Yeah, yeah, we're in the process of rolling out a lot of the same gamification ideas into community. So I'm super excited about gamifying community gamifying social engagement and kind of like, turning it into the kind of experience that people can have in a course in our platform that the same kind of experience where they can't wait to come back and I can't wait to see what's coming next. Really, really fun thing to be working on. I'm very, very privileged to have this be my job.


Richard Walker 24:55 

Let me let me change the topic slightly here. What's your view on AI? Is artificial intelligence playing a role in what you're doing?


Murray Gray 25:02 

I think about it constantly. I think about it constantly, because I think AI is going to pretty rapidly depending on your view of how fast it'll happen is kind of up in the air. But I think it's going to pretty rapidly come in and become like a companion when it comes to an educational journey. So I think AI, first will get the AI assistant, when Apple rolls out the AI, which is going to be in the next six months, probably in the next three months to everyone's iPhone, Siri is going to become the first, the AI version of Siri is going to be the first exposure that most of the world has had to true AI. And it's going to change everything, when people are talking to your iPhone, about have a conversation with a large language model that is better than GPT4 right now, it's going to be probably, you know, halfway between four and five, who knows, who knows what Apple's working on, they've been very quiet. But that is going to be game changing for everybody, people are going to be asking their assistant for everything. And I think that's going to naturally expand into the area of coaching, tutoring, and other kinds of instruction where you have in your pocket, a computer that can train you one on one, like you had a personal coach, and they're going to know your strengths and weaknesses and where you need to drill and where you need practice and it's going to be endlessly patient with you. And it's going to be able to pick up right where you left off. And it's going to be a zero cost. So I think AI is going to be changing education in the biggest way possible. And I am obsessed with trying to figure out how I can incorporate in those advancements and how I can help, how I can sort of bake them into what I'm doing in the Xperiencify so that I can help my customers stay ahead of this and help my customers be more successful.


Richard Walker 25:13 

Yeah, so I can imagine all the easter eggs you can plant if you ask the AI, this question that reveals a celebration, you ask the right question. Yeah. Now that's fascinating. How do you think it might impact, I mean, how you guys in your software business, then deliver? I mean, are you thinking you're going to put AI into Xperiencify or you're just going to work with AIs that are out there to present what you already do?


Murray Gray 27:29 

That's a great question. I don't quite have the answer to that one yet. One crazy idea I had was to create an app, an iPhone app or an Android app for every one of my creators, every one of my customers have an app that they can upgrade to the app. And it could be called, who knows what it's called. But basically, it's the app that contains all of the information inside all their courses. So Rich, you could upload your entire your book, your every course you've ever created, all the content you've ever put out, upload it up to Xperiencify will give you an app back that then you can sell access to your customers, it's going to be rich in the pocket kind of thing. And it's going to be your personal tutor for everything that you teach about. And they're gonna be able to interact with you on a one to one personal coach level. And you'll be able to walk them through any kind of transformation or educational journey that they might want to go on with you within the guardrails of what it is that you talk about.


Richard Walker 28:31 

I have a passion for helping people be their best version of themselves. That's why I wrote my book, actually, both my books. And this is something I think about is like, how could I build an app that replicates me the experience of talking to me or interacting with me without me having to be on the call, because I want to clone myself, so to speak, and not put in 20 hour days, I'd rather have the time put into creating the content, and have that content serve people in a meaningful way. I mean, as it is, I actually use chat GPT with this podcast, to read all the podcast transcripts, so it knows my voice. And then it can write things in my voice which come out pretty good. I still edit them, of course, but it comes out pretty good. I would love to see this happen. So I liked that you have that idea. Look, we're getting close to the end here. And I do have another question for you. But before we wrap up, what is the best way for people to find and connect with you?

Murray Gray 29:23 


The best way to connect with me is my website xperiencify.com you can drop me an email at murray@xperiencify.com That starts with an X xperiencify.com. That would be the best way.


Richard Walker 29:36 

Nice. Okay. So, we talked about you becoming an entrepreneur who's had the biggest impact on your decision to make that leap into being an entrepreneur.


Murray Gray 29:46 

Oh, wow. That's a great question. I think it goes back to my dad, who I mentioned at the very start of the session today. He was an engineer. He always wanted to be an entrepreneur but never really got out of the research mode, like he would research forever and never do anything. And I couldn't get a job out of university. And I just decided to start making things for people because I thought if I can put some value into the world and help somebody, then I'd get paid for it. So I just started using my skills to do something and help someone, and then they started to pay me. But business was slow. And it wasn't really growing fast. I was still living with my parents, I was like, 24, or something, living and working in my bedroom. And at one point, my dad took me aside and said, you're 24 you're still living in a home? Are you sure you don't want to go and get a job? Because you're very employable? And I said, no, dad, I really believe in what I'm doing. And I think I'm gonna make it work. So, if you can be patient, I'd really appreciate it. And that was the last time he ever said anything like that to me. He was like, okay, I got it. This is on you. And I believe in you. So, after that point, it was like, it always been very supportive. But that was the only time he ever said that to me. And it was the last time that I felt any kind of maybe you should do something else. And that really empowered me to believe in myself more rarely hit harder, really, and pushed to try and make myself a success.


Richard Walker 31:19 

What an amazing parent. I mean, honestly, because how long you gonna be on the payroll with him, right? And he has that concern, but he sees your passion and interest. So wait, does this mean you've never had a job?


Murray Gray 31:29 

I mean, I've worked as a contractor or freelancer for other companies. But my last real job was the salad bar at Sizzler. I was a seller bar guy when I was 17, or 18.


Richard Walker 31:44 

Wow, that's amazing. That is amazing. Congrats on your success and your journey. That's totally awesome. All right, I have to give a huge thank you to Murray Gray, co-founder of Xperiencify for being on this episode of The Customer Wins go check out where his website at xperiencify.com. It's listed below in the comments so you can look below this. And don't forget to check out Quik! at quikforms.com where we make processing forms easier. I hope you enjoyed this discussion as much as I have and will click the like button, share this with someone and subscribe to our channels for future episodes or The Customer Wins. Murray thank you so much for joining me today.


Murray Gray 32:22 

Thank you so much. It's been a blast.


Outro 32:26 

Thanks for listening to The Customer Wins podcast. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.


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