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Navigating Transitions: Expert Tips for Advisors With Ryan Shanks

Ryan Shanks

Ryan Shanks is the Co-founder and CEO of FA Match, the industry’s only data-driven solution for advisor recruiting. Previously, he was the Founder and CEO of Finetooth Consulting, which provided transition consulting, outsourced recruiting, and succession planning to financial advisors within the United States.

With over 22 years of experience in financial services, Ryan began his career by establishing The Swivel Group, a boutique consulting firm geared toward recruiting services.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • Ryan Shanks discusses how FA Match helps people

  • The key metrics advisors look for during firm selection

  • What are the trends in the financial advisor recruitment space?

  • Ryan talks about the FA Match business model

  • Challenges advisors face when transitioning firms

  • Success tips for a transitioning advisor

  • Tips for work-life balance

  • Ryan shares his thoughts about AI

In this episode…

How you serve your clients as an advisor determines how successful you become. Being in the right environment is crucial for better service, as it helps you and your clients feel comfortable and can take your advisory career to the next level.

However, most advisors feel they don't have the freedom to put their expertise to work, which increases their desire to transition to other firms or become independent. The transition process itself can pose a unique set of challenges. Ryan Shanks recommends hiring a firm that offers career management planning services to build more meaningful and more profitable connections.

In this episode of The Customer Wins, Richard Walker sits down with Ryan Shanks, Co-founder and CEO of FA Match, to discuss how to successfully transition firms or become an independent advisor. Ryan talks about the key metrics advisors look for during firm selection, the FA Match business model, and success tips for a transitioning advisor.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

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Episode Transcript:

Intro 0:02

Welcome to The Customer Wins podcast where business leaders discuss their secrets and techniques for helping their customers succeed and in turn grow their business.

Richard Walker 0:16

Hi, I'm Rich Walker, the host of The Customer Wins where I talk to business leaders about how they help their customers win, and how their focus on customer experience leads to growth. Some of our past guests have included Tamara Williams of the Williams Consulting Group, and David Knoch of Docupace. Today I'm speaking with Ryan Shanks, the founder of FA Match, and today's episode is brought to you by Quik! the leader in enterprise forms processing. When your business relies upon processing forms, don't waste your team's valuable time reviewing the forms. Instead, get Quik Form Extract. Using the Form Extract API, simply submit your completed forms and get back clean, context rich data that is 99.9% accurate. Visit to get started. All right, I'm really excited to introduce Ryan today. With over 22 years of experience in financial services, Ryan Shanks is the co-founder and CEO of FA Match, the industry's only data-driven solution for advisor recruiting. Previously, Ryan was the founder and CEO of Finetooth Consulting, which provided transition consulting outsource recruiting and succession planning to financial advisors within the United States. Prior to Finetooth, he served as an executive for Associated Securities Corp and as a director for First Financial Planners. Ryan began his career in financial services when he formed The Swivel Group, which was based in Central Texas, and operated as a boutique consulting firm geared toward recruiting services for broker-dealers in the wirehouse, bank, regional and independent spaces. While these are the say Ryan knows what's going on here. So Ryan, welcome to The Customer Wins.

Ryan Shanks 1:52

Thank you, Rich, good to be with you.

Richard Walker 1:54

So if you haven't heard my podcast before, I talk with business leaders about what they're doing to help their customers win, how they build and deliver a great customer experience, and the challenge is to grow in their own company. Ryan, I'd like to understand your business a little better. How does your company help people?

Ryan Shanks 2:08

So, we think about us having two different doors in terms of an entry point, right. One side is the financial advisor, which in my opinion has always been the most important part of the equation, right? They're the ones who actually provide the advice to the clients. The other side is the firm's, and a firm could be a variety of different types. But it's driving connectivity between them based upon compatibility.

Richard Walker 2:30

Right. So that's always a challenge, because look, our company has helped with transitions and the advisors, switching firms on the technical side of the fulfilling of paperwork. But I've heard all sorts of stories about how do we choose a firm? How do we know what company is right for us? What do you think are the key metrics that advisors look for when they're looking for a new firm?

Ryan Shanks 2:49

It changes, it depends upon, we sort of define an advisor by an avatar type, right? And depending upon that avatar type, there are drivers to that decision. So it could be transition money, how much money is a firm willing to give an advisor to move them over? Right, it's an offset of expense, but there's also quite a bit of lift in that. It could be technology, it could be independence, it could be ownership of the P&L. It could be for some it can be access to capital, right. So I've been doing this for 20 years, I'm gonna go double the size of my business. And I'd like to find someone I can partner with to leverage their balance sheet for my growth. So, again, it depends upon where they are in their lifecycle, as an advisor, been directly correlates to what the drivers are for the decision.

Richard Walker 3:35

Okay. And what do you think the trend is right now? Is it breakaway wire house? Is it independent, going RIA, is it just switching firms? Do you see any kind of trends?

Ryan Shanks 3:44

it's continues to be breakaway. And I think that is a testament to the independent landscape just having caught up and frankly, in a lot of instances surpassing what they can do in a captive environment. Now, I think that there's captive firms that are out there that are doing it, right, they're making appropriate investments, they still recognize that that advisor is the customer to them, even if it's a W-2 scenario, like the goal is how do I retain you, but the breakaway segment, it continues to grow. I think the independent to RIA, it's happening, but there's a lot of these organizations that have morphed into having the ability for you to just inside the same home move from room to room, right where they've got custody for the RIA assets. So you no longer have to you can just disconnect from them independent broker-dealer, and then maintain that RIA status. And you have up-and-comers, like altruism that are out there trying to really challenge the status quo to say that we can solve for those issues, we're digital. Yeah.

Richard Walker 4:42

Do you see a trend in terms of these breakaways looking for another big firm, the Raymond James the LPLs, the Satara's or are they looking for something truly catering to their specific needs? And so it kind of falls into what matches

Ryan Shanks 4:56

it's going to depend upon the driver right? So the larger companies right larger checks. And it's simple math, right? They're making more money, they can afford to write bigger checks. And so there are advisors that are going for that check. And it's not taking anything away from those companies, because they've got the infrastructure and the support mechanism and the teams. it's a couple of the organizations you just met have done a phenomenal job at hiring really, really talented people to fill roles where it's more of an RIA support ecosystem, versus we're just really more broker, which was kind of the formation of a lot of these companies.

Richard Walker 5:30

Yeah. And so exactly what is FA Match doing? And who are you serving? I mean, we talked about the advisor being the primary thing, but how are you helping them figure this out?

Ryan Shanks 5:41

So we've built the technology to be able to have some of that knowledge base in it, right. So again, based upon the persona type, we know what those drivers are. So, an example might be, an advisor is captive, they know they want to go independent, right, they're done, I don't want to make a lateral move to another captive organization that's going to absolutely control all things about me and my business. But then when it becomes independent, it's like, well, there's a variety of different doors. And it's all a very blurry gray area, right? I could go into an independent broker-dealer and be duly registered, I could go set up my own RIA and choose who I would custody with. I could also go join an RIA, or an OSJ of an independent broker dealer. So there's depending upon the nuance, do I want to go completely alone, and bear all that risk or not? So we're helping them to determine, based upon their business and their compatibility with the marketplace, which is the straightest line, but also really understanding from the advisor, what do you want?

Richard Walker 6:40

Yeah. And that's hard to see. I mean, you see the advertisements in the magazines, and the recruiting pitches, were great on tech, we are like a family. I think you see all those things. But I've listened to advisors. In fact, my mentor was an advisor. And he looked at three different companies to go to. And so do you have these different promises? And how do you feel it out? How deep do you go with the advisor to help them figure that out? And maybe that was more of the Finetooth background too?

Ryan Shanks 7:05

Well, you know what, Rich, we have a part of our model that we call advisor agent that very much honors what we started at Finetooth Consulting, and that was that the advisor become the client, that all due diligence was based upon what the needs were a better advisor. So, there's no favorites, right? Like, I mean, there was no firm that got all the referrals and closed all the business ever in the business that I've done. And so we do have that for an advisor that qualifies. Right, so to apply to human capital, we require a larger book size, to just justify that. But we walked him through the exercise, but I will tell you, we still use our platform in the digital footprint to conduct that due diligence.

Richard Walker 7:49

Yeah, no, that's awesome. You guys are really organizing the industry around that. So let's talk about different aspects of all this, because the advisor is going through this massive transition, I mean, mentally, physically, emotionally to make this switch and this change. And what do you think the biggest hang-up is for them to make this choice to move over firms and then go through that process?

Ryan Shanks 8:13

Number one, yeah, again, and you're gonna hear me it's gonna sound like a broken record the persona type. But if you're a breakaway, for example, the number one is the risk. If I go with a client's follow?

Richard Walker 8:24

Yeah, right. You can't wait to the data.

Ryan Shanks 8:27

Well, that's it. And so in really what that does, is it no one can answer that, but that advisor, right, you know how you brought Rich Walker on as a client and how you service rich for the years that you've had him as a client, if you were to leave, does Rich love you so much, that he'll follow you wherever you go. Right. So that is really the number one driver is, if I leave and go to build it, will they come? And we work with advisers on sort of measuring that risk, right, identifying those clients segments that might be at a greater risk, and determining does it make sense? And I tell any advisor that's contemplating launching their own independent wealth management business, that you need to have at least 12 months of runway, right?

Richard Walker 9:11

Yeah. Right. So I want to bring this back home a little bit, because you're an entrepreneur, I'm an entrepreneur, my perception of your business is there's not a lot of competition for what you do. I don't know of another company like FA Match. Maybe I'm wrong. But that tells me that you have driven this business from a passion from a sense of desire to help people. Is that a fair way to look at this?

Ryan Shanks 9:34

That's absolutely a fair way to look at this. I mean, I care more about the financial advisor, and then being at the right place to best serve their clients, above all other things as it relates to the business and it's always been the driver for me.

Richard Walker 9:49

Yeah. I think most advisors that the high majority truly, truly care about how they're helping their customers, too. And when they go through the transition, I'm sure they're in this quandary of how do I keep serving my customers so well, yet, make this change that is going to both benefit my team, my business as well as my clients. How do they balance that? And I want to come back and talk about how do you balance that?

Ryan Shanks 10:10

Yeah, it's a great question Rich, because it's pretty commonplace that once your mind shifts to, I'm going to go do this, you really do sort of pull back, right, the energy level changes psychologically, you're sort of stepped out. And so in some instances, the adviser feels compelled to sort of step away from that high degree of service they might be providing the clients, because the attention needs to focus on sort of this 2.0. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And look, it's transitions. If we were talking 20 years ago, the volume of transitions done, you talked about David Docupace, you look at the technology they're doing around transitions, like 20 years ago, the volume was very small. Right, there weren't the dollars trading hands, independents hadn't caught up to be willing to actually pay any money for an advisor to transition to them. So wire houses continued to sort of steal from one another, it's changed a ton. And it is very difficult, and that advisor just has to stay focused on am I going to align with an organization that, I am not a fan of you looking to put all of those chips into one basket with a firm that's never done a transition before. So I tell firms, if you're new, and you're trying to get in front of an advisor, that is your biggest barrier to entry is never done it and you've got to convince them that you can actually handle it so that they're back up and running on the other side.

Richard Walker 11:31

Yeah, for sure. Wonder if some of those firms take an acquisition approach instead of transition, just to make it their ownership just to own that process.

Ryan Shanks 11:40

I mean, look, that is a business model, right? Private Equity, family offices, there's a lot of money in our space that is coming in to do that to say, Rich, we want to align with you. We love what you do for your clients, there's a lot of synergy that we share, let us de-risk you. But there's a lot of work involved. And it's also a lot of because you see the volume of transitions every year, if I'm going to put in all the work to try to win your business, there's no guarantee that you're not going to leave me in five years to go somewhere else with someone's got a better story. But if I take a stake in your business today, right, you don't have that option. I get to build a more sustainable business which creates greater value.

Richard Walker 12:19

Yeah. So Ryan, before we started recording, you and I were talking comparing family knows we both have three kids, I think, we both have the stress of trying to manage our lives. And I correlate this to what the adviser must be going through. But I wonder, as an entrepreneur, how do you know when to stop? Because if your passion is helping people, it's really hard to stop helping people when you see the need? How do you know when to stop and balance your life and serve Ryan better?

Ryan Shanks 12:45

Yeah, Rich, I mean, I have sucked at that in my life, there have been blocks of time where I just my kids mean so much to me, but you are really driven, right? You want to go out and make an impact. And so for me, I think I shared with you the last year, I've had some stuff that I've kind of really gone through and continue to go through. But I think it's making me a better person and certainly a better father. But I think what's happened is, is that I just got to want to draw a very clear line between it. Right? I'm very active with my kids in their lives. And when it's good time, that's it, it's done. So I mean, I had an advisor texted me at 11 o'clock at night, about two, three weeks ago. And that was actually not a bad time to text me because I'm done with the kid time. Right? In bed, I should have been asleep, but I wasn't. And so the timing was good. But I think if you want to go and help folks, we talked about this, you help the person you see in the mirror first. I mean, there's a reason that when you're on a plane, they say we lose cabin pressure, and you're sitting with your kids, put the mask on yourself first, there's a reason. Because if you aren't capable to continue breathing, how can you then take care of your kids? And so that rings true. So for me, I try to really shift my attention and go, well, gosh, if I were to sort of compare all things, there is no business there is no client that is ever going to be more important than my family. Yeah. And so it's just knowing when to draw that line,

Richard Walker 14:05

I love people like yourself where you're giving first. My wife is the same she's a nurse an ER nurse, and I've had to remind her, you need sleep, you need rest, you need to get over an illness, whatever it is, because you're not gonna be any good your patients, and you just burn yourself out, then what are you gonna do? And it's the same impact on our families, right?

Ryan Shanks 14:24

That's exactly right. And it's also the teaching, right? It's the legacy that you leave your kids. The legacy isn't just did you work your tail off and make a lot of money that the kids think they're going to somehow get access to? Right? The legacy is, did I lead by example on how you should go out into the world and live your life.

Richard Walker 14:39

Yeah, I made an agreement with myself. So the first 12 years of running my company, I work 60, 70, 80-hour weeks, highly consistent to that. And I said when I have my first child, I'm gonna reduce that down to 40 or even 35 hours a week. And I did so when my first son was born, that's exactly what I did. Ryan, I went through so much guilt and personal shame over not working, not doing all the tasks, not feeling like I was being productive. And I felt this incredible loss of freedom, which is kind of strange because I was working, not free, right. But the freedom to actually work. And I went through all that for a couple of years, in fact, that the outcome was, my company grew, I was delegating, I was forced to push away, forced not to make every decision forced to let go. And it was really the catalyst that started driving the growth of my company.

Ryan Shanks 15:32

Yeah, you make me think of, there were several summers, where there were vacations planned going to the beach, two weeks, three weeks, and a day or two prior, my phone starts to blow up. And it's one firms acquiring another firm, and all of a sudden, I've got 15 to 20 advisors at the firm being acquired. They're like, I don't really want to be with the buyer. Can you help me conduct due diligence in the next two weeks, and you're sitting there with just the ultimate dilemma. Right, even you're an entrepreneur and opportunity knocks you don't nest, you don't want to turn it away? Right. So I leaned into it, and I worked my tail off. But while the family was at the beach, I was on conference calls. And so I think about that a lot, right? Like, it may be that it was the right thing to do, because I'm making an income and that provides for the family. And that's an important aspect to being the caretaker for the family. But you don't get the time back, right, I wasn't at the beach with my newborn. So, those are some of the things that were very similar. I think I used to grind really, really hard and traveled a ton. I know, we talked about that. And it all changes when you start to think about not to mention, it's lost opportunity, you're in and out of an airport, you're not productive.

Richard Walker 16:45

Yeah, maybe we should start another podcast called The Family Wins. Because honestly, I think about customer experience all the time. But I also try to think about family experience and one-to-one engagement experience with people. I try to improve my communication with my kids so that we're having a better experience through whatever it is we're doing, whether it's playing or fighting or whatever.

Ryan Shanks 17:07

That's it. And that's what says, mommy, last night, I'm driving back from my daughter's field hockey game, and we get back home, my boys had already eaten, we sit down to eat, and she starts talking to me about dynamic that's playing out with some of the girls at school, and so on. So thanks, we're talking about them. And so I'm all of a sudden, I'm sitting there, and I'm like, and she actually wants me to give some input, which is, as your kids get older, that's not necessarily something they want. And it was pretty amazing, to sit there with my 12-year-old daughter and say, here's how you should respond, here's how you should interact and don't throw anybody under the bus. And so you're right, and I think I shared with you earlier, the family wins. It's almost like you've got to be on the other side to look back in retrospect, to define whether it was a win, right? I mean, but it's the work that you do every day.

Richard Walker 17:56

Yeah. So let's bring this back to the advisors and what FA Match is doing? What techniques would you offer to somebody to help them figure out this balance in their life or their work life as they're doing the transitions, etc? Any techniques or tips?

Ryan Shanks 18:11

Yeah, I mean, I think it's get up earlier. I mean, I think that that's critical, you get up early, you can start to crush the day before you're getting inundated with things, I think, have sort of a cut-off time and an absolute cut-off time every day, to sort of just shift gears. I volunteer I actively involved in coaching my kids sports and that's super fulfilling. And I remember the first year I did it, as I'm in it, I'm like, this is horrible. Why am I doing this, but it was the most fulfilling, that was one of the happiest moments of that year? Was that dynamic playing out. So it's be involved, right? To do those things. And it's to understand that there is actually some energy and karma out there that because you don't lean in and take the work that's coming your way doesn't mean that it's going to just go away. Right? I do believe that if you were actually you're actively living your best life and doing those right things with your family, and those that matter, it can carry over into the business.

Richard Walker 19:05

Yeah. Well, we hear that with advisors too, right? Because what you said, has my advisor been serving me well enough and engaged me with well enough to keep me with a move. The tighter your relationship with anybody, the more they understand the more they flex and move with you through life through any kind of change and turmoil and strife that you might have. So I'm sure you see that. And we had Tamara on before and she helps people during the transition during the actual paperwork and such. And I think one of the points she made was, if you don't know your client, they don't know you. Why would you expect him to come with you?

Ryan Shanks 19:38

That's exactly and I see that all the time. I see it all the time where it's like I want to go, the grass is greener on the other side of this fence. I want that and I'm like okay, so let's talk about how often do you communicate with your clients? What is your service model? Yeah, and they quickly realize and so it's like, you know what, you might be able to move to where the grass is greener in your eyes, but you're gonna need to take the next 12 to 18 months to rekindle the love that's been lost between you and these clients.

Richard Walker 20:05

Yeah. So let me ask a totally different question here. I love the advent of artificial intelligence. But I'm wondering how you see AI changing or impacting your world and what you're doing with it?

Ryan Shanks 20:18

Yeah. So I mean, listen, someone told me the other day, and I think it's spot on, I haven't heard anything better in terms of how it defines it. But I think right now, it's in sort of this infancy state where it's almost as though if you could go and get two to three interns to come in and do work for you, right, so it can help do those things. But it can't necessarily replace and do what you're doing today. Right. So you're still going to sort of oversee it, to ensure that quality control is in place. And I do have some reservations and concerns that our industry, as one example, has just gotten way too over their skis, with the optimism that it's going to solve all problems. Sure. Because at the end of the day, we are all people interacting with one another for different reasons to try to transact business together to try to align to go and solve problems. And so it might be able to do it, but I think it's going to create unless we can all get out of our desire to control and manage. Right. Only then do I think it can actually really go out there. And so I've got mixed feelings about it, frankly, I have concerns about it. I mean, I've sat around and talked to some friends that are knee-deep in that, and I mean, way knee-deep in it. And I'm like, the concern is, is that it just feels as though that if you follow the line of thinking of what its ultimate potential is, we lose this. Maybe I'm old school. And this conversation, this one friend and I've been having for three years. And I remember sitting around the fire pit, but the first time we talked about it, and I'm like this very thing we're doing now could potentially go away, if we all just get dependent upon it just being that's what we're doing. So I think that there's good, I think that from sort of an efficiency perspective and be able to go in and reconcile what's black and white? I think it's great. But that then relies on whoever's feeding into it, to define what's black and white, and trying to eliminate the gray.

Richard Walker 22:13

Yeah, I clearly think of it as a tool set. How you learn and how you apply that tool set will determine how you get an outcome from the tool set. What's also interesting is that there are so many people working on it now. So there's different things happening that we're not aware of that we will become aware of over time. So of course, yeah, there could be nefarious plans with it, but they're also going to be amazing outcomes with it. I mean, like our new product is going to streamline how people take in documents. In fact, transitions is one of the primary use cases that keep hearing about. Transition paperwork is often done outside the broker dealers current system. So they're getting paper and handwritten signatures. And now they've got to collect all the data. Well, our new API does that it'll pull all that data for them. So they can now transition the data seamlessly right into their system. Are you seeing other AI tools that are being used in transition processes to make it better?

Ryan Shanks 23:08

I am not seeing anything right now. But I know that the larger firms are the ones that are obviously leaning more into this and making the necessary investments. I'm seeing very interesting hiring taking place. So you know that there are things that are happening behind the scenes, it's coming. So again, it could be I mean, look, I'm a believer in sort of technology, being able to sort of consolidate and to be able to sort of deliver up specific for our use case, right advisor, firm compatibility, for recruiting your succession. So I do think you're right. I mean, transitions has forever been an absolute pain. And I think that, kudos to you for continuing to lean into that. Because I think that if you can get that right, you do create the efficiency that's necessary there to where and you made the point early on when we were launching, I mean, it was around accuracy. If you could say there's 99.9% accuracy and an advisor transition every single time, that's as good as magic.

Richard Walker 24:03

Yeah, that's why I'm excited about it. I appreciate that. Ryan, as we start to wrap this up, I have another question for you. But before I get there, how should people find you and connect with you? What's the best way?

Ryan Shanks 24:16

So I'm on all the social channels, LinkedIn, I'm most active from a business perspective. But I mean, listen, they can drop me an email. It's I'm active on it. So it's me reacting to it. So that's the best part.

Richard Walker 24:31

Cool. All right. So I get to ask you one of my favorite questions, because I get so many different answers out of this, who has had the biggest impact on your leadership style or how you approach your role?

Ryan Shanks 24:42

Can I give you two answers. Sure. Love it. So Aaron Klein, former Riskalyze now Nitrogen would be one, he does not know this. But as I was on their board of directors and as I got to know Aaron, in kind of a non-business setting, I got a sense of sort of his heart, who he is as a person, what he's done, his children that they've adopted. And there's a little bit of a guard that I think folks have in a professional world that there's sort of, my personal and how I feel and where my heart is on relating to certain things is separate from business. Right. It's like the separation of church and state. And Aaron did such a phenomenal job and still to this day does it that this is who I am in my entirety, on the personal and the business front. And so that's been very inspiring. And frankly, maybe in some ways, it's helped me to evolve through what I've been going through to try to be better at that. And you don't have to apologize, right? You're spending more time with your kids? No. And the second person would be my co-founder, Eric Savage. Eric and I were best friends. We were best friends before we decided to launch this business. And it was a funny dynamic of I know the business really well. And he's the smartest developer tech person that I've ever known. And I'm like, can we bring the two worlds together? And he's done a phenomenal job of just shooting me straight. Right? I historically had a tendency of I was striving for perfect. And there's a lot of us that do it. Yeah. And he said, Ryan, if you want to have perfect, and this started out with early days of the product, right, so we're working Monday to Friday, and on Saturday and Sunday, we're doing QA we're testing. And it's he and I, and we're testing. And he called it the Steve Jobs Ryan was to come in and apply the Steve Jobs, it's got to be perfect. And he's like, if we're going for perfect, let's just close shop and move on to something different, because we're never going to have it. But if we can strive for better, that's progress. And so he beat it into me, and it's now something that I apply every single day.

Richard Walker 26:39

Man, I suffered from perfectionism in the early years. And luckily, my mentor did something similar for me. He said, Rich, don't forsake good enough and the pursuit of perfection. And I really, really took that in and I started understanding it and then realized, wow, I keep going the extra mile, which is the other 80% of the work for nothing. For 20% of the value like why? Yeah, honestly it filters into our forms model too, because our forms are not perfect, we don't define every single checkbox or field, we make them all work, but defining them all has no outcome. No real outcome when it's needed. We go in to find it. So yeah, anyway. That's great. That's great to have those types of people around you. So I want to give a big thank you too. Ryan Shanks, the CEO and co-founder of FA Match for being on this episode of The Customer Wins. Go check out Ryan's website at And don't forget to check out Quik! at where we make processing forms easier. I hope you've enjoyed this discussion, and will click the like button, share this with someone and subscribe to our channels for future episodes of The Customers Win. Ryan thank you so much for joining me today.

Ryan Shanks 27:51

You are welcome. It's a pleasure.

Outro 27:54

Thanks for listening to The Customer Wins podcast. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.


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